What If We’re Making Parenting Harder Than It Needs to Be? | Michaeleen Doucleff

Speaker 1

One the most powerful things you can do is just to stop arguing with your kid. Like completely stop. This was really transformative for me. In many cultures parents just don't argue with children.

Speaker 2

Today I am speaking with Michaelene Ducleff, reporter, biochemist and author of the best-selling book Hunt, Gather, Parent. After becoming a parent herself, Michaelene began exploring how families in different cultures around the world raise children, especially in communities that still live in ways that are in some respects closer to how humans have lived for most of our evolutionary past. Her work raises fascinating questions about parenting, cooperation, emotional regulation, children's autonomy and what modern families might learn from societies that approach child rearing very differently from many Western cultures today. Michaeline, I am so happy to have you on the podcast.

Speaker 1

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Speaker 2

What led you to start exploring parenting from an anthropological perspective? I mean, there are so many parenting resources out there. So why this niche?

Speaker 1

So I think there was two things. One was I was reading a lot of a lot of parenting advice out there based on science, based on expert advice, doctors and it it just was not working. I mean I w it was not working at all. I was really struggling as a as a as a new mom, especially during the toddler years. at the same time I was a reporter for National Public Radio in Washington and part of my job was to go around the world every now and then to report on disease outbreaks. So I would be sent off to a very rural corner of the world. And I started to notice while traveling that in some societies, parents didn't struggle with the things that I was struggling with and with the things, you know, people commonly struggle with in Western cultures. Like raising a helpful kid, raising a kind kid, a respectful kid. in particular, there was one trip I went down to a little tiny village in the Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico, a Maya village. and my daughter at the time was two and a half. years old and we were really having a hard time getting her to not hit me, getting her to calm down. and while I was there, I met these parents who seemed not to struggle at all with their children. And, you know, a lot of these homes, these p these families had a have a lot less resources than we do, right? And yet they were raising these like incredibly kind and respectful children. One morning I was talking to a mom Maria in her kitchen and her twelve year old daughter got up walked right past us and started washing the dishes like totally voluntarily, like nobody asked her to do it. And I was really stunned. And I asked the the l the young girl, like, why did you do that? And she said to me, because because I love my mom. And I was like, it was that was really like a transformative moment for me. I was like, I wanna learn this style of parenting. I wanna learn what these parents are doing. Because clearly what I was doing was not working. so I started digging around and really researching in books, talking to anthropologists and traveling some more, and I started to realize that there is like an easier way to raise kids. It's ancient, it's it you can find it all over the world, and it's not just to the for the Maya families. and what was incredible was when I started applying some of the ideas with my little girl in San Francisco, they worked. And they worked like amazingly. And so this was what I was like, okay, I have to share this because not only is there this way, but you can actually transfer it and bring it to ver to a very different place, right? The city in America.

Speaker 2

That's really fascinating. So before you kind of got this eye-opening experience, how would you discover your parenting before?

Speaker 1

Yeah, I in Hunt Gather parent I could say it's like my r my parenting is like r riding on like a a white knuckle ride through like Cat Five Rapids, you know, just this crazy ride. Like a lot of yelling, a lot of controlling, right? A lot of telling telling the kid what to do and then having her fight back with me. So a lot of power struggles, nagging. I would I would say, you know, you tell the kid to do something, they don't do it, you kind of Ask again, then you start nagging, then you start begging and then you start yelling, right? That was kind of my my my method. and it it it it wasn't it didn't work. You know, it's really based on control and fear and kind of this idea that I have all the answers, which is another thing we can talk about as a parent. I have all the answers. But this other way of parenting, which again you can you can find like in the Me in Mexico, in the Arctic, in Tanzania, and Southeast Asia, you can find it all over the world. Parents, Actually raise kids to be cooperative with them. So it's based on cooperation. It's not like you have to do this. You're actually helping the child learn to want to be to behave, to want to be helpful around the house, because they're part of this team, right? And so it's it's really a method that minimizes this conflict. but but you have to kind of release some of the control, right? You have to kind of start to see. that maybe you don't have all the answers and that your children can be part of the process of of teaching them and raising them.

Speaker 2

Absolutely. And this all sounds so, on one hand, intuitive because it's the way you would treat another adult. Yes, exactly. It's so hard to do in reality. I mean, I have read your work at least three times and like your experience here, that is pretty much my day to day. Yeah. still. I don't know. So I need this conversation.

Speaker 1

I mean it is a it is a mindset change, right? I mean I think people ask me, okay, well how do you get this to work? How do you get that to work? And and I see that that you ha you have to shift your mindset about the role of the child, right? And your role in their life, but also really about their intentions. You know, because if you in our society, I talk about this. We we kind of think kids are manipulative, we think they're pressing our buttons, that they kinda have these devious motivations and plans, right? And and of course sometimes it comes across that way for sure, no doubt, right? but I think that perception bec makes us treat them differently, right? It makes it it makes us defensive, it makes us not like you know, as much, right? Because you don't want you don't like people who are You feel like are manipulating you and controlling you. you know, my sister when I first had Rosie, my little girl, she said she said, she's already manipulating you. And she was like a baby, right? Like so we have this like real But but in many cultures that that that is not the view. The view is that this the child loves you and worships you, which I think is closer to the truth. and that they just don't know how to behave, right? They just don't they they don't know how to handle the a situation and they handle it by acting this kind of crazy, monstrous way, right? But it's not because they don't like you or they want to control you. and so I think making that shift can really help. But it's a it's a hard shift to make because then your responses to the child are much softer. They're much more empathetic. and and so you don't start off with this very conflictual defensiveness, right? I'll give you an example. So One day Rosie, I think she was about six, six I think six or seven. and maybe six, and and she came in and she had these these champagne glasses that my husband and I have had for like twenty five years. Like very like like really don't they're not that expensive, but they mean something to us, right? Or to me at least. and she kinda had them in her hands and she was kind of swinging around. And I really wanted to yell at her, like, my gosh, you're gonna break put down, right? But then I sh I I paused for a minute and I and I thought I tried to have that softened view of her, right? Instead of this view that she's like just wants to play, wants to break things, wants to mess things up. And I and I said to her, I said, What are your plans for those glasses? Right. So it's a very like optimistic pro social view of her behavior. That she's she's planning something. She's and she said, I'm gonna make a special drink. tonight for you and dad and like and I was like, see, like that's like a perfect like sh sh her intentions were so good, right? And she and and it was true. She went, she made the drink and everything was it was really lovely and beautiful and she really felt good about it and we felt good about it. But you know if I had yelled at her, like the end that would would not have been the end. Like she would have either gotten really mad and run away, put the glasses down, she would have broke the glass, you know, smashed the glasses. and so I I I I give this as an example of how like my view of her changes my response and reaction to her, which then in turn changes her behavior, right? And so I think the real shift is a is that, right? And it's hard because we are told and we have been treated the other way, right? but just once you start doing it, it becomes easier and easier because you you get proof that it's true. Right, that there is inside these little monsters would look like monsters on the surface. Like these incredibly kind, helpful, generous humans. They're just clumsy and they don't they don't know how to do it and how how to behave under certain situations.

Speaker 2

Absolutely. No, you're really right. I sometimes get it right and then you can really tell that it works. It works. Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And then your you you your connection with the child is is deepened, right? Versus kind of an erosion, right?

Speaker 2

For sure. So I guess this contributes a lot to this, because one thing that really fascinated me when I read your book the first time was how calm many of the parents you wrote about seemed. seemed, no matter what the child did, they were like unfazed. They were calm. That's not my reaction. I guess the view of the child is one aspect and that contributes to this a lot, but are there other things that contributes to their calm they have?

Speaker 1

Yeah, this is a big shift, right? And right, we we tend to when a child's energy and behavior is very strong and loud and and and chaotic and maybe destructive, as Western parents, we tend to match it, right? It we tend to let it kind of fluster us and at at the very least stir some strong some emotions inside, right? and if you look around the world the I mean There's you see a very different response to children. like there's a there's a a story and another book that I cite a lot in Hunt Gather Parent called Never in Anger. It's an anthropological book about living with an Inuit family family in an igloo for like eighteen months or with the Inuit family for eighteen months, part of the time was in the igloo. and in in the story the I think the three year old was like hitting the mom with spoons in her face. And the mom is just I think she says something like, she has no reason. She has no rationality. This is what they often say about young kids. No reason, no rationality. No understanding is the word. No understanding. And she's unfazed. and yes, I think part of that is n is what we just talked about, like what I just talked about, you know, that why would you get upset and get and respond to an irrational, crazy person? Right, a person that has no reason or logic, right? Why are you rash why are you getting a debate or argument with them? They are not logical, right? And so that's just a waste of time. So a mature adult would not do that, right? Because it's not gonna work. And I I tell this to a lot of parents, like, you can't reason with a three year old. Like you just can't. I mean, you you know, like like this just not gonna work. You're just gonna probably make the situation worse. I think the other thing to know is that children's emotional states, and the parents told me this, and in modern neuroscience shows this too, the children's emotional state matches ours. Their energy, their their you know, and their response, and and so if they're really like charged and upset and having a tantrum, I think many parents around the world know that if you stay calm, if the parent is calm. And has no reaction and very little only like an a a very calm, empathetic emotion. Like, I feel sorry for this kid. This looks this looks horrible. Right? To be all screaming and upset and i it's funny 'cause in the book I don't really talk about this, but I think this is more of what it is, is this finding empathy for the child and compassion in these moments. Because that that could help calm yourself down, number one, because compassion and empathy are calm emotions, right? So but but I I think that's what it is, is is it's the the parent feels sorry for the child in these states, right? And and and that empathy and calmness then transfers to the child and the child calms down. And, you know, we all as humans have mirror neurons and we mirror the emotions that we're in. Like me just getting calm probably got you a little calmer and like You know, the listener gets calmer when I kind of calm myself down a little bit and we kind of, you know. And children are even more this way, right? They especially from a parent. And so I think around the world parents would be like, this is just what works, right? Like one of the moms in the Arctic said to me once, if you get upset, if you get like a have an emotional response, you're just raising your own heart rate. You're just like putting yourself in a stressed state. Why would you do that? You know? And and I mean I think we do it because that's how our parents did it with us, you know, and so it we don't have the modeling and the experience of it. But again, I think it once you try to find that that empathy for the child, you know, I think it makes it changes everything. I think very quickly the child will learn to calm down because it's what the child needs in that moment, is like a calm, empathetic model.

Speaker 2

you

Speaker 1

to show them what to do. And and the parents in the Arctic tell me, you have to show them how to calm down. Right? You can't tell them to calm down. You know? You can't you can't you can't warn give them warnings to calm down, you know? Like we Rosie and I joke, my daughter, she's ten now. We joke, we see people when we travel, the parent will be like yelling at the kid, Calm down. Like like you know, like it like it just like be quiet. Why aren't you quiet? Like literally yelling. And it's like when we travel we see this and it's like that's just you can't do that, right? You have to show them. Right? And and that showing is like this finding the calmness in yourself. But I think it I think as I'm talking to you right now, because I've been talking to a lot of parents about this tantrums recently and And I think it is finding some empathy because even if you're calm and you kind of ignore them, it's still kind of negative. But now, bad behavior is different. Like like like what I'm talking about right now is like a kind of a totally dysregulated child, right? They just can't handle their emotion and they're screaming and like they're just you know, bad behavior, like whining and being disrespectful, then you just ignore and walk away. vast majority of parents in the world completely ignore. And not ignore in the sense that you say, I'm going to ignore you Or in the sense like yesterday a mom said to me, Well I say to the guy, the kid, when he whines, try again, try again. That's not ignoring. That is engaging and like no, ignoring means literally like maybe giving them a stern look and then and then turning your back. Or literally just turning your back and walking away. Like you're just not gonna do any of it. You're not This this behavior is unseen.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah. And I can imagine I am not so good at trying that, but I have tried the opposite and it doesn't work. So it doesn't work at all. Nope. So you already mentioned the team a little and that is one of the other things that really like stuck with me. And that is probably the thing I am actually, actually like working the most or like actually tried the most I think in my life that like just involving.

Speaker 1

Does not work.

Speaker 2

at least my older one, like in cooking and like all the everyday chores, doing laundry and stuff like that. So why is it so important to have children participate in real like daily life, work, etc.

Speaker 1

Yeah, your life as an adult. Yeah, it's utterly important. The the most important thing. for many reasons. But n number one, it's how children are are born to want to be helpful. Like it's what makes us kind of human. is that if there's all this studies that show that little children, you can see it, toddlers, they wanna be helpful. You know, they'll do they'll they'll do things all these voluntary in the lab, they'll do all these voluntarily voluntary helpful tax tasks without being asked, you know. and I I think it it's it ki has kept them alive in the past, right? It's it's a evolutionarily an advantage, because the helpful child survived probably, right? But I think what it's given us as humans is this need to help people that we love and that love us. And in in Western society with little kids, we often shoe them away, you know, because they can't really help very much at first. They make a bigger mess, they make it worse. so we shoe them away and eventually the child learns, probably like around six age six, five, six, seven is when it happens, that they their job in the home isn't to be helpful. And so that is one way that we erode children's helpfulness. And so in many cultures. Children are allowed, like you said, to participate in cooking and cleaning and they're they're encouraged. They're given small tasks that they can do, maybe very quickly, like, okay, stir the pot and that's it, and then they go, you know. and what this does is over time teaches the child how to be helpful, right? They, you know, stirring the pot turns into stir sauteing turns into chopping, right? And then, you know, you you gain skills. but it also teaches them that that's part of their job in the family. That's part of their role, right? And so by the time they're six, seven, eight, they still want to be helpful and they have start to have skills that it really make them helpful. So that's another reason to do what you're doing is because you're teaching the child skills and you're teaching the child, Hey, this is what you we do in our house. We work together, we help. Everybody plays a role, right? And in the end what this does is it gives Children, this incredible sense of pride and satisfaction with life, a sense of like I belong, right? When you're helping people, helping people makes you feel better than even the person you're helping. They science shows this, right? And so I think there's three reasons, right? One is you're giving them skills, two, you're giving you're teaching them to be helpful in the long term instead of eroding their desire for helpfulness, and then three, you're giving this wonderful sense of pride and accomplishment and like I can do something. I'm a contributing member of the family. And purpose, right? And give them a purpose in life. And all of those things help children feel good mentally. And I think one of the reasons we have a mental health crisis with our teenagers and our tweens is because they're missing that purpose in life. You know, and that can start really young, you know, learning that wow When I I mean gosh, when Rosie like bakes something and brings it out for dinner or cooks something or does something really helpful, I mean, the look of pride and joy in her face, right? You can't get that from you know, watching cartoons or, you know, whatever else kids do besides being helpful. and so it is a mental health question, I think. I really think it is. I think kids are just begging for They just so need this sense of like what I do in life matters to my family, to others. We we can't be mentally healthy without it.

Speaker 2

No, I think you're really right. And it also seems to be an immediate, like, mood-shifter. Also, this kind of do-do-something, and it's like, okay, kind of snaps out of a grumpy mood pretty much right away. Yeah.

Speaker 1

I think a lot of kids are grumpy because they feel kind of purposeless, you know? And they wanna and they wanna grow. They w you know, the new book I have out Dominic Kids, like talks about how purpose is absolutely required for hum humans. It's a f it's a fundamental need. But so is like growing and making progress, you know, and seeing that, I'm I'm improving, you know, and I'm I'm learning s useful skills. and yeah, it's a little mood bump, right? Like, whoa, whoa. I can use the oven. wow, you know I I can I can chop a carrot. Wow. I mean these are these are these are like little bit scary tasks for kids and exciting, right? To to do grown up things, use knives in the oven and fire and you know, and in in that yeah, I you're right. It gives absolutely a mood boost. And it gives a mood boost to know you do something that look your kids you are the most important thing in their lives by by far. And for them to do something that you care about and need, gosh, just feels so good, right?

Speaker 2

Absolutely, Such a luxury when you think about it that way, having kids. They're amazing helpers also.

Speaker 1

I know. And they really like a little bit every day is y you'll see they'll they'll gain skills like so fast and it'll just they'll blow you away. If you just give them a tiny, tiny thing to do. It's not much. It doesn't need to be much and it and you don't want to force it, you know, really, because then that nobody likes to be forced to do things, right? So they start to associate a bad feeling with it.

Speaker 2

Absolutely. Then exactly, and on the topic of like skill forcing autonomy, I love the idea of having my like giving my children autonomy or at least my older one who's old enough. My oldest is almost five. My youngest is one, so he's not getting much autonomy yet.

Speaker 1

What is how old is he? Okay. You can have it. You can have it. It's just it's a smaller range. You know, it's a smaller range. But inside that small range can be quite quite a lot of of autonomy.

Speaker 2

Probably. That's true. That's But sometimes I just, for me, it can be really tricky. if, let's use an example, mornings, getting ready for daycare. It's really like simple. There's this very easy routine. It's done every day the same way, but it's, I feel like I'm constantly, you know, reminding, rushing, eventually pushing her out the door with me. No, the four year, the five year,

Speaker 1

The one year old. The four the five year old. Okay. Okay.

Speaker 2

My big one, no, the little one is just on my arm. That's easy. It's the old one I have to like chase constantly. Like how did parents in other cultures do this? Like how do they combine autonomy with getting places?

Speaker 1

With the needs, right. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a couple things. So I think I learned a lot about this in the Maya village because the kids while we were there were going to school and so I could see kind of what happens. and I think there's a couple things. I think if kids have a lot of autonomy just in general in their life, and one of the anthropologists, psychologists, told me this too. because I asked her about this. you know, like so a kid that every day gets two, three, four hours of very autonomous time where they're playing outside or playing in a park, you know. I mean in our culture even an hour is a lot where a kid is playing it outside in their yard or at a p a neighbor park and the the parent is not interacting with the child. Watching maybe yes, but not sending any commands. So the child feels really autonomous. a kid that gets that every day in l like in the Yucatan it was like three hours a day, four hours a day after school is a huge amount and is more able to kind of comply with the family's needs when it's time, right? Because you're not you don't have this sense of like I'm being controlled so much, right? So I think that's one thing. That's what w Susan Gaskins, a s a psychologist, told me when I asked her this question. She said, you know, I think the kids are When you feel less like you're in a bubble, you you you're okay when it's time to kind of do what you're t told, you know? I think the other thing is is is you probably and I'm you probably are saying too much and doing too much. Right? Because because and I think that a lot of kids then push back. I think it like you just said, you do it the same thing every day. She knows. Mm-hmm. She doesn't need to be told. She really doesn't. And you can just say, like, I'm not gonna tell I mean if you want, you can just

Speaker 2

No.

Speaker 1

Stop telling her what to do. And I I I think she will do it. But the other thing you can do is you can just be like, Look, I'm leaving in twenty minutes, you know? I you can handle it. Give her the power. You know, kids love power, right? And and their own power, right? Like, look, I know you're five, you can handle this. You know, I think I've been saying too much to you and I think you're ready for me you to do this all on your own without me saying anything.

Speaker 2

Hmm. I think she would love that.

Speaker 1

See what happens. You know, and then you can like nudge her in the sense like if she's close, like around that age with Rosie, I knew Rosie could do it. And so I started the like, okay, if everything was almost done except the jacket, I'd like go get the jacket and like kind of hand it to her and then walk out the door. You know, like or the shoes, I would come and bring and put in front of her. Right. So something that's very gentle. instead of like, go put your shoes on. So hard for a kid, right? But if you bring the shoes over and you stick by their feet, they know. It's a they know, right? So you can kind of nudge her without words and directions, but I have a feeling most of it she's gonna do. And then you can just leave her one day. Like one day I I left Rosie at the daycare. I was like, she wouldn't leave and I was like, Okay, I'm I'm done. I'm like I'm done asking you to leave. And it was about this age. It was I think she was about six. and so I got in the car and I drove and I came back around and she was r running out the door and like she was kind of upset at me. But you know, and I I came back. I came right back. Yeah, yeah. But it was kind of just telling her, like, look, like you know, and then as they get older, you can talk to about like it's disrespectful. You know, it's disrespectful to when it's time the family has to do something. And again, you have a lot more pull if the kid feels autonomous in their life. You know, like, look, I don't ask you to do a lot. We can but when you know, when it's time to go, we gotta go, you know? So try it. Try tell her. She's up to her now. And you know, you can also loosen your standards. I don't know this about you, but when I talk to parents, there's there's kind of these extremely high standards for what the child needs to do before they get ready for school, and it's like Okay, so the shoes aren't tied or the t the teeth aren't brushed every now and then or like the hair is crazy, like, you know, like it the hair part really, who cares? Like it doesn't matter. It's more for you than it is for the kid, right? So like or whatever. Like they're still in their pajama shirt. Who cares? Like just in s in many cultures I think getting out the door copacetically is more important than looking perfect or having a very like You know, so that's another thing we did in our house. It was the standards were very loose. Very loose, you know. The hair did not get brushed for years. And now she has this beautiful blonde hair, super long that she braids and you know, so she d she did not hold on to that her whole life. It was just you know, not she wasn't re she wasn't ready to take that on yet, so no

Speaker 2

Sounds clever, so maybe... Exactly. Not feeling like I have to control everything that goes out the door. No. No.

Speaker 1

You don't you you can like pick one or two. Like shoes. I usually am mo you know we live in the desert now and it's very pokey, so yes, maybe some shoes. But like there's a story from like a Maya family once where they they were going out into the woods, I think to collect plants or something, and the kid was like didn't want to put the shoes on. And I think the Maya mom asked I think sh he was like five, like your kid your child. The Maya mom asked like two or three times. They often will ask three times, very calmly, go put your shoes on. And then like five minutes later, go put your shoes on. Like no escalation. And then five minutes later, go put your shoes on. So they have this thing where it's always like in threes. but then the kids still didn't put the shoes on and the mom was like, Okay, well you'll go without the shoes. And they went out in the woods and the kid got their feet all like messed up and like, you know, cut up and stuff. But then the mom was like, sh then she always put her shoes on.

Speaker 2

effective way of learning.

Speaker 1

Yes, yes, yes. And it was and and the mom didn't feel bad. It was like you know, some sh I think one of the moms told me one time, like some kids just need to learn that way from certain things, you know? Like I need to learn that way sometimes.

Speaker 2

Hmm. Well, yeah, that's really... I think you're right. I think you're really right. I'm gonna try. I'm gonna try.

Speaker 1

Try. And then let me know. I'm very curious. I always tell people please tell me 'cause like then we we know what what you know. And all kids are different. There's n there there's no doubt. But the vast majority of kids respond really well to who giving them more power, right? And more autonomy.

Speaker 2

Absolutely. So then another aspect from the book that really kind of has stuck with me all these years is the idea of family orientation rather than like child orientation. It's a very big deal and it's different from at least when I look at like the way

Speaker 1

Yes. Yes, very big deal.

Speaker 2

I live and many people around me, everything here is very child-centered. You speak a little about the family orientation and why it's so important or helpful.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And I mean I think there is something like because I've seen parts of Europe where it can be much more child friendly, which I really th I really appreciate that. In America we are very anti we are f like we are against children. I mean no, no, I'm not kidding. Like we Rosie and I were in New York and like there was a restaurant that was like, sorry, we don't allow children and she's dead. What? I know, yeah. And so so I think child friendly is good in this sense of like The child is welcome in the adult world. Right. And maybe there's some adjustments made for the kid. Like I remember when we were in Paris one time when Rosie was younger, and there seemed to be more in restaurants and places, like little desks and little things for children. And like, you know, like like so you could think of that as like child centered, but it wasn't. It was child friendly. It was like this is an adult place and adults are here doing their adult thing. But the child is welcome and we're gonna like help them fit in, you know, and this is very hunger parent. This is very like the child is welcome into the adult world if they behave. If they don't behave, they're kind of sometimes unceremoniously removed from the adult world. And again, it depends on the age and you know, the the parents know, try to know, but they're welcome and some adjustments are made, right? So that the child can participate. And so I love this, like this you know, making some some special things so the child can thrive in an adult situation. Right. That's what I really think leads to a healthy child is when that with that. But what I'm talking about when we say child centric, it's like it's like things that are bas there's no adult world, right? It's a it's a completely made up world for the child and the adult would not be in that situation if they didn't have a child. Right? So like play centers, zoo very kitty friendly zoos, museums that are just for kids, like play areas, I mean, things that I just hated. I hated going to these things. You know, there were just tons of kids screaming, w misbehaving, and at the end Rosie would just be in horrible mood, screaming, misbehaving. so this is very unique. This is very new, right? These things did not exist a hundred years ago for sure, maybe even sixty in most parts. and this I don't think helps children or the parents, you know, but we have this sense that we're supposed to do these things, right? That our schedules on the weekends and after work are supposed to center around the child's needs and activities. And you do not find this anywhere in the world. Like this is crazy and completely unnecessary. So if you don't like it, just don't do it. I mean in fact I would argue it does a disservice to everyone. So it yes, but this mind shift is, you know, it makes a lot of money for some people having kids everything. You know, in in our home we've also recently d just we don't even have kids Screen time. Like I we don't watch kids shows. I'm like, I don't want to watch them. And I don't want Rosie just sitting there with headphones on watching stuff by herself and and like I don't she doesn't need She need all those cartoons, all that you know, so we when we watch movies, we we watch movies that we all will enjoy and find interesting and and you know, kid friendly but also adult friendly. Like we you know, I think involving kids in your life, like you said earlier, and in this change. Can make a huge difference. Those two together is almost all you need.

Speaker 2

Absolutely. Yeah, I agree. And it's a lot nicer. Like, yes, I really like your example of the kids TV show because I mean, we also don't, mean, nurse are young, but still she doesn't have any screen time at all. Sometimes we watch a movie together, like together, that is something animated, something we all enjoy. Yeah, it's a nice thing. And I think it's always me and my husband are more way more into it than she is. She's like,

Speaker 1

And how and how it should be. Right. We kind of lost track of this idea that I don't know when it happened, but that kids need I mean, literally, the American Academy of Pediatrics has a line that like they need screen time. And I'm just like, it no, they don't. Like we're like They have not had these things. I mean, even in my childhood, we had like Sesame Street and like one other PBS show. And the rest of it was like adult content.

Speaker 2

Like.

Speaker 1

you know, that we c or family content, right? Not even really like adult content. so I don't know, we've really lost our way on this, I think, because all this living in this child world, whether it's on the screen or in it it it stunts kids. You know, like one of the psychologists told me, Susan Gaskins, the wom I part of it before, she says it's an impoverished version of the real world. It's not helping kids. you know, and if you look around like anthropologically, kids play and do like imaginary play when they don't have access to the real thing. So for instance, the Inuit kids would create little dog sleds. Or when we were up there, the boys would pretend with real harpoons, pretend to harpoon these boxes in this river, and they were practicing harpooning whales. That was p play. Right, but they were doing it because they they were not allowed yet to go out and be on the boats with the dads or the f the families. and so traditionally and throughout history, human kids play when they can't do the real thing. And so basically in Western culture now, kids play all the time because they don't have access to the real thing. Once kids start to get some access to the real thing, the play kind of s subsid slowly and they turn into

Speaker 2

Mm.

Speaker 1

functioning teenagers, tweens and teens, right? But if they've never had access to the real thing, when they're fifteen, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, they gotta what do you do? You know? So so yeah, d I think if you feel t if a parent feels terrible after going doing something for just the kid, don't do it. You know? Why? Say like, well what would I rather do? I remember when we made this switch, this was one of the things that really changed our life. I was like, Wait a second. So that would mean I would have enormous amounts of time on Saturday and Sunday to do what I want to do, you know? And like it all of a sudden my life came back. And again we had to like find ways of in of incorporating a toddler, you know. But like we went hiking, we'd shorten the hikes, you know, we'd bring something along. I'd end up carrying her a lot of it, which was fine. It was a good workout. It and then the other thing I think it helps with is like taking the stress out of like kids don't need entertainment on the weekends. Like I always say like we for a long time, the entertainment on Saturday was making breakfast together and cleaning up. And then the next entertainment was cleaning the house all together. And and like and and this was great fun. I mean it really was. I know it sounds crazy, but it was. I mean and Rosie learned to make breakfast and she learned to clean the house and and then in the afternoon we go do something outside, you know, and so so this kind of stress of like we need something scheduled at every moment can just go away.

Speaker 2

Nice. Very good. Very good. That sounds really reassuring. One thing I'm curious about, whether you observe this or not and have any feeling or sense for how these other communities do or handle, is conflict. Especially like conflict between children. Let's say an older and a younger one.

Speaker 1

Is it?

Speaker 2

Do you have any take on what the maybe non-Western approach would be? Because my approach is not working.

Speaker 1

What is your approach? I'm curious.

Speaker 2

It's stop it, don't hit your brother, don't be mean to your brother, don't do this, don't do that. It's awful, it just makes it worse.

Speaker 1

Great. So I think that there is conflict between siblings everywhere at some level. I think it's very Yes, yes, I think I I think so. I think but I think there's a couple things that can help kind of ameliorate it. I think one is teaching that your five-year-old that she's kind of like you are to her, right? So she I don't know how much of that you've

Speaker 2

So

Speaker 1

You've done, but like she's like she's really important because she's the big kid and she's she's actually kinda like a little mini parent. Right? And so instead of it being like you they're competitive or they're kind of competing, it's more of she is in charge of and some and you can overdo this because kids can get like to the point of w so I I I hate because so What ends up happening, I think, in Western culture with ki with siblings is either the ki the siblings compete a lot, right? And maybe you're you've got that might not happen because they're a little bit d farther distance in age. I think that's gonna help you. But the other thing that can happen is the older kid turns into the Western parent. Right? Like right, like there's like a controlling thing that happens. But in these other in other cultures, the older kid turns into the Mayan parent. Hmm. Right? Or the Inuit parent, right? And the Inuit parent teaches the older kid to be the Inuit parent. Right? And not not totally, but like this is your role, right? And so what your job is to do is not only become maybe a a little more cooperative parent yourself, but to teach the five-year-old to be a cooperative parent to the l little one. Does you see what I'm saying? Like can you?

Speaker 2

. Absolutely.

Speaker 1

Look, I know you've gotten so good at like cutting these carrots, or you've gotten so good at cleaning this, or can you show your little brother how to do it? Can you be in charge of that for the day? You know, or can you be in charge of that for while we cook dinner tonight? Can you be in charge of helping him learn? Or, you know, whatever whatever is like the. But it's like, can you or can you give me some ideas on how we can get your little brother to to to help us with the laundry today? Like, how could he help us? Right. So you're kind of like, Teaching her to be hunk other parent. Right? And then it doesn't get rid of all of it, but it it changes the dynamic of the relationship, right? Because now sh she has a little bit more power, which I think she should, you know, that that's her role in life is to to take care of him, to to be a big part of taking care of him, like both emotionally and physically. and so you do the same things. Instead of it you know, can you do this? It's can you do this for your little brother? Or can you help him do this, right? So it's the same method. It's just now she's doing parts of it, right? And applied applied to him. so we had a kid in our that was in our neighborhood, real real tough kid, real can be really mean and destructive and I would have him over and he was a couple years older than Rosie and I would say things like Hayden, you know, d do you think you could take Rosie down to the park and and watch her and make sure she's all right and keep an eye out on her and like you think you could do that? Are you ready to do that? You know, and he would really like ta take the responsibility to do it and like will do it. And he would be really well behaved. So it was almost like he like again, like needed some sort of responsibility or needed people to do something that mattered to somebody and It was really striking to me how his behavior would change when he was like in charge of another kid, you know. So try it. But I do hear some kid somewhere it kind of it goes too far. The child the older child becomes the the dominating control person. And like you don't want that either, right? So it's like It's a bad end. That might be better than the

Speaker 2

Absolutely.

Speaker 1

That actually might have some advantages over the competitiveness. I think the competitive is really hard, so

Speaker 2

Absolutely, it is.

Speaker 1

And you can ignore a lot of it too, or just move in the one year old you can move around. You know, you can just take him kinda out of the situation. Yeah. You know, like just kind of like there's no tolerance for it. I don't know if you've I I don't think I have that in the book, but one of the Maya moms would always say, I just don't tolerate it. And I was always asking her, like, Well w how do you what do you mean? Like 'cause I would say, like, you like I would just nag and nag and she's like, Yeah, but I d I j just don't tolerate it and I'm like, Well

Speaker 2

Mm.

Speaker 1

How do you just not tolerate it? And I think she would often move the the whining or the small child out of the house or or she would change the situation so that it could no longer happen. You know, like a parent was talking to me yesterday about how one of the one of the boys just whines all the time. And I think a lot of parents around the world would at the moment the kids started to whine, like just like even just like a one sound. would turn their back and run away. So you w you wouldn't even let the kid whine, right? Like like instead of like hearing it, right? Like you know, like just the kind of nipping things in the bud. Cause these things become habits, right, for kids. And so it's just like, nope, you're not even I'm not I'm if if a kid whines without you there, is he whining? I don't think so. Right. Like whine but all by yourself. But like, you know? So kind of similar with that. She starts hitting him or

Speaker 2

Hmm.

Speaker 1

Buggy him like I don't know if you can just kind of so you don't even have to say anything to her, like prove him.

Speaker 2

gonna try that for sure. So and I see that time is running out so fast. I have a million questions I could ask you. So but let's do this because this is I think gonna be fun for people listening. So if a modern Western family wanted to experiment with one or two ideas of yours, where would you suggest they start? What's a good one or two things to try?

Speaker 1

Yeah. I think one of the most powerful things you can do is just to stop arguing with your kid. Like completely stop. This was really transformative for me. So anytime I felt like I was gonna argue with Rosie or my husband, to be honest, I like would just say, I put my hand on their shoulder gently and I would just be like, I'm not I'm not gonna argue with you and I'd walk away. Yeah, yeah. And I mean there's like one, two percent of the time where like you actually have to have the kid do things.

Speaker 2

Wow.

Speaker 1

but w half of that time the kid will do it anyway if you walk away. I promise you. Like they know, like you said earlier in the conversation, they know what to do. You telling them again is not going to help. Like one of the innurent moms said to me, If you're asking a kid to do something five, six times, who's the ignorant one? Right? Like you know, like okay. So so yeah, try that and just feel like we're gonna have a policy of we're never gonna argue. And like we never argue. And it's like wonderful. my husband and I and sometimes we still argue, but the kid, no. So that would be like n number, but it went down a lot. That would be like it's just not worth it. Like I it's just not like in many cultures, parents just don't argue with children. Like it just doesn't happen. Like there's no reason to.

Speaker 2

Thanks Wow.

Speaker 1

You know, it's it's like what are you getting from it? I you know, I'm like it's Yeah, exactly, exactly. Okay. It's a habit. I think it's a habit. And we hear it a lot. So, and then I think the other thing is what you said. I think getting them and welcoming them to do something once or twice a day that you're doing, you know, okay, stop feeling the need to entertain them. Like they don't need us to entertain them. having the especially if you've got two kids, you they don't need you at all. You know? But they do so stop that. Like you don't need to sk over schedule them. You don't need to set up things for them. They don't need screen time. But like but they do need like to be involved in your life just a little bit. So like I I say to parents like what start off once a day when you're doing something, say, Hey, come you can say it very lovingly, Hey my love, come Come over here and and you know, cut these carrots. Help me cut these carrots. Cut cut these carrots. Just tell directly. Or put put these books away. Just one short, very quick, easy command that they can that you know they can do. It doesn't take a lot of effort. It doesn't take a lot of time. So they do it and then you're grateful. Thank you. That was really n that was helpful. Like if you just do that like once a day, it's gonna change the child's perception of you. in your in the it's gonna make them so much happier. And it's also gonna you're gonna start teaching them to be helpful. So try try that. Try that once a day and then move to tw twice a day. But these are literally super quick things. Perfect. You don't wanna you don't you don't want it to be really hard or long. Like I would make the mistake of telling Rosie when she was three, like help help me unload the dishwasher. Well she didn't know really what that meant, right? So it's no it's like here put these forks away. Put this fork away. You know or hand me pick that plate up. You know, hand me this plate. Put this plate on the table. Right? When you set the table with a a little kid, hand them the plate. Put this on the table, you know? Like and then by the time they're seven, eight, nine, they'll be they'll can they can do the whole thing. Right? Without you even really teaching them. They'll know.

Speaker 2

That's perfect. That's perfect. We'll do that. And you already mentioned it. Your new book, Dopamine Kids. I'm really curious. I have not read it yet because of my little ones. Why did you write it and who is it for?

Speaker 1

They're very little. So I wrote it because one, when I talk about Hunt Gather Parent and we have question and answers, it's the first question parents asked me, What do you do with screens? So that was what got me like really curious. Because when I went h when I wrote Hunt Gather Parent, Rosie was really young and screens weren't really a big deal. But then as Rosie got older, I also started to kind of worry about my own phone usage and my own kind of obsession with my phone and really f Noticing that I was having trouble enjoying being with Rosie with without my phone and really realizing like, like what is this teaching her? And, you know, as she gets older, I could see the screen time and the pressure for screen time come in more and more. And so I started to study like why I was so kind of addicted to my phone. And I started to discover some really fascinating things that I hadn't h heard in the media. and I started to to learn some new skills about how to handle these. devices that we have in our lives because hunk out their parent is a is advice that works everywhere on all kids. But a lot of the advice in there doesn't work with with these products we have now that are like intentionally designed for us to overuse them. Right. Like ultra-processed food is intentionally designed for kids to overeat, for adults to overeat. You know, Netflix is intentionally designed YouTube for kids to watch it f for twenty-four hours a day. Right. And so we can't really use the same tools that we've been using. We just need a couple other tools and we have to to we have to kind of build a life that kind of incorporates these tools. And then it's not that hard. I think we're w the the the advice out there about screens and ultra processed foods doesn't work. It's really outdated. And and once I learned the tools that do work, our life got so much easier and so much more pleasurable. 'cause dopamine kids dopamine is is not pleasure. It is desire and wanting and motivation. And so I think it's our job as parents to make sure that all that desire and wanting goes to things that actually really fill up the child and make feel good. And so that's I mean, that's what the system is there for, originally. And and so that the book teaches parents how to do that and do that for yourself, you know. So you're excited and wanna do activities that at the end leave you feeling really good, you know, and optimistic, give you that mood. boost instead of leaving you kind of just wanting more, you know.

Speaker 2

Mm, that sounds like a really important book.

Speaker 1

I think I think it I think the ideas I hope my hope is that it will help a lot of families. I mean, I've got I've gotten some really good feedback about it and but it it's it's a tough problem. Parents are in we're in uncharted territory, you know, and it's come really fast, you know. but but it's not hopeless. I mean they're seriously, when you do a couple of make a couple of shifts, things can it become so much easier. So

Speaker 2

Okay, that's good. That's good. There are things to do.

Speaker 1

Yes, yes, and the things not to do as well, which you what you'll learn. But thank you so much. It's been really fun talking.

Speaker 2

Yes, I had a great time talking to you. And lastly, before I let you go, where can people learn more about you and your work and your...

Speaker 1

Yes, so I'm not on social media because I I can't handle it and I'm not a big fan. But I I have a website that I spent a lot of time on to make and you can email me there and I I read them all and I try to get back to all of them. So

Speaker 2

Super, super. Thank you so much for today. I had such a good time talking to you and I'm looking forward to trying a lot of new things again with my daughter.

Speaker 1

Yes. Let me know how it goes. Thank you.

Speaker 2

Have a good time.

Speaker 1

Okay, bye.